But, yeah, thats all based on a mis-translation. Fr. Im getting a little giddy here, because when we were going over this in our preparation, it was just stunning to me: once you have clarity about, especially what the Old Testament says, theres all kinds of bits of the New Testament that just light up, left and right. Okay, but before we get to the New Testament, right? I am an omni-nerd. And that just sort of beautifully anticipates St. Gregory the Theologian, whereand now hes speaking in the context of christology, although, I mean, if you understand christology in this full sense, it really just lights upwhere St. Gregory says, What is not assumed is not healed. And now hes talking about: Christ has to be fully human. What happens next? So, Fr. Right. Stephen: And these things that the evil one has wrought in the world are here in the world and need to be purged out, need to be purified, need to be atoned for in that sense, need to be removed, wiped away, blotted out. So theres a whole bunch of things like that, where weve picked it up and we assume its there in the text, and it actually isnt when you go check. Stephen holds a Ph.D. in Biblical Studies from Amridge University. Author: Fr. Stephen De Young - The Whole Counsel Blog Andrew: Yeah, thats cool. Fr. Fr. And then he also takes away the sins of the world, meaning the sins that the people commit; he takes away their sins. So theres two goats, right? . Andrew: I know. Fr. Fr. [Laughter] So, yeah, thats the word itself. Stephen: Right, because if he saw him directly, hed die. So in short, because our first two halves were already more than half of our time this evening, so were not going to go through the whole work, St. Athanasius talks about atonement as happening through the Incarnation, that by God becoming man, he, by virtue of his holiness as Godthat same holiness that they couldnt see and live on the Day of Atonement in the Old Testamentby becoming man he purifies humanity, not just in terms of, like We tend to think of this in quasi-spatial terms, almost like the human body seen as a physical thing. When Christ says hes sanctifying himself, its not as if he was unholy before and hes doing some action; that him sanctifying himself is talking about his incarnation, his earthly life, and his coming death, in which he has sanctified himself, his person, in order that his disciples in all ages would be sanctified, would be made holy. Fr. Someone could stand there and say, Hes turning the page; what does that mean? And people may have heard of the mostly later tradition where theyd tie a rope to the person, to the high priest, in case he wasnt so pure and he dropped dead and they had to drag him out. And I looked this up: what is the earliest use of this word? Stephen writes in the preface, the Orthodox Churchproclaims that its liturgical ritual and way of life are in complete continuity with that of the apostles This book makes that case. Then the books conclusion has a couple pages suggesting that the Eastern Orthodox Church of today is the most faithful continuation of the apostles legacy. Stephen: Were going to talk about this more in the second half, but Azazel, this spirit, is seen as sort of the source of sin and corruption that has come into the camp, and so its basically being sent back to it. Stephen: Let me add a couple of other things. Stephen: We dont want any. The Bible only specifies the heights of two people. The whole goat is burned after the blood is extracted. Now, most people, when they think of atonement in the New Testament, if I came to someone just at random and said, Hey, where would I go in the New Testament to read about atonement? they would probably not immediately say 1 John. Andrew: Yeah, like when were serving liturgy, we turn the page in the book. What do you do with it? Fr. Disclaimers, Pauls Works of the Law in the Perspective of Second Century Reception, by Matthew J. Thomas A Review, John the Presbyter: Eusebius Imaginary Friend. Item No. Stephen: Do you have to pay royalties now that you said that? Andrew: In the noun form, right, when its used for the thing on the top of the ark of the covenant, as mercy-seat, which is lovely. And by the way, those handful of later Greek usages seem to be based on the Jewish use of it, meaning its used in contexts where someone is making some kind of offering to a supernatural being, to a spiritual being. The real question we want to know is which Christian tradition has faithfully carried on the legacy of the apostles. 1 John 2:1 talks about Christ as the high priest who intercedes in prayer, and then 2:2 says that Christ is the atonement, not only for our sins but also for the whole world. Hes clarifying; hes making it abundantly clear: This is not a sacrifice to Azazel. Andrew: Yeah, so the goat is sent to Azazel. Photius Avant: I am. What we want is not just to understand salvation but to experience salvation, and understanding the cosmic realities and how we come to participate [in] them, ritually and every other way, is the way that that experience becomes real to us. Immediately after they are mentioned, Genesis goes on to discuss how the heart and minds of people became continually evil, and Gods flood judgement in response. Father Stephen De Young's comments on political converts Stephen: In St. Matthews gospel in particular we see a lot of this connection to Christ as the scapegoat, and one of the places where we really see that isnow this requires you reading some outside the New Testament literaturebut the epistle of Barnabas gives a little bit more detailed description of how the Day of Atonement ritual was being performed, sort of in some of the small details that had accrued over time, in the first century AD. Stephen De Young finishes up the discussion of Revelation, Chapter 12, and starts on Chapter 13. Fr. You guys are all wrong! To actually go in there to purify that space. Another fun thing from Sunday school, ruined by Fr. It has nothing to do with Denzel Washington, probably, John Goodman. Length: 2:12:00. Fr. Fr. Hes not sacrificed to anybody. Stephen: And youll see it in even Orthodox translations, because a lot of our early Orthodox translations were either utilizing or aping the King James Version language, and so you can kind of see how you can get there, like if you go from a very developed theological idea, where you dont really know what the Hebrew word means, so youre thinking, Well, okay, God is enthroned behind the ark of the covenant, between the cherubim. Also considered is the possibility that the Biblical Nimrod, a descendant of Ham, was the Sumerian king Gilgamesh, and that he also was genetically Nephilim. Fr. He took our infirmities upon himself. And, as you can imagine, thats taken in a certain direction. Yeah, and then again Hebrews 10: How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of Godand heres the important part here, for our purposesand has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified and has outraged the spirit of grace. So, again, the blood of the covenant does this sanctification. Stephen: Baptists across the South have just, you know, re-tuned their car radios away from AFR. Stephen: So hes seen in 1 Enoch, or the book of Enoch, when Azazel appears, Azazel is sort of the leader of the bad guys, the leader of the rebellious watchers, who are responsible for corrupting the line of Cain and leading them to destruction that results in the flood. He heals them, and thats how Matthew interprets that passage from Isaiah 53. Fr. Fr. We might go a little further if we understand that the body is this nexus of powers or potentialities, to say, well, all of the human powers and all of the human capacities, but for St. Athanasiusand St. Irenaeus does something very similar before him by a couple of centurieshe means spatio-temporally, that Christ not only sanctifies humanity in its parts and in its powers, but the moments of a human lifebirth, childhood, young adulthood, adulthood, up to and including a human deathand that by living through those, not just, again, spatially, but temporally, those things are sanctified and purified by the union of Christs divinity and humanity in his Person. Our sins came back to us!. [Laughter], So, right, it has to do with when the ritual is described in Leviticus 16I know everyone knew that off the top of their heads, Fr. But he was particularly significant in the understanding of both Judaism of the Second Temple period and early Christianity as not only the first sinner, as we already talked about a little bit, but also as a teacher of sin. Journal for The Study of The Pseudepigrapha, Online Heidelberg Journal of Religions on the Internet, Corrupting the Image 2: Hybrids, Hades, and the Mt Hermon Connection, Corrupting the Image vol 2: Hybrids, Hades, and the Mt Hermon Connection, Lamhfada: An Online Magazine of Myth and Story. But the Bible indicates that the Nephilim reappeared after presumably being killed off in the Flood. The Bible refers to people who are (generically) tall, (generically) very tall, or (generically) of great stature. Photius in Texas. Fr. You also find in 1 John 5:19 the whole world lies under the power of the evil one.. But the basic idea is that, as Leviticus says elsewhere, that blood is life, the blood of an animal is its life, so sin, this taint of sin and corruption, is death. And as we talked about last time, at a fair amount of length, Passover representing this manumission, this freedom from slavery, slavery to sin, freedom from slavery to the hostile powers. I am so thankful to have found this podcast, which is a wonderful resource on content and context! Stephen: Yeah, theyre going to cast lots, and ones going to go for one purpose and ones going to go for the other. Fr. Fr. They werent like that. And then, through the sinning thats going on around them and even within them, they develop this taint where they are made common again. Stephen: Right, but what happens is, in sort of the symbolic mindhi, Jonathanof the Jewish people, sheep and lambs become associated with Passover. Fr. Finally, Judaic and Christian mindsets will be considered to discern the differing views on the etiology of evil (angels, demons, Nephilim, giants), their interpretations of canonical and apocryphal documents, and the basis of their theological tenets. With the exception of a few details, there is nothing that a good Catholic or Protestant shouldnt be able to say a hearty Amen to. [Laughter] No, theyve got to both be great. Photius: Oh, man! Andrew: Yeah, so you have two goats I suddenly remember that joke that goes around on Facebook: You have two cows and then it has this list of all these economic systems. The understanding of the geography, biblical text and the cosmological significance of the area of Transjordan, and specifically Bashan in the Bible, give valuable understanding to what Jesus expressed: And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man.". The answer, according to Fr. But Im not sure that the body of the book establishes this. But Israel knows the Day of Atonement ritual. So he gives some of these details, so some of the details we get from that are a scarlet cord being tied around the goats head, and that when they after the sins had been placed on the goat, the people would sort of gather in the streets, and they would get reeds, and theyd strike the goat and hit it to sort of drive it out. It fell into disrepair. Stephen De Young and Ancient Faith Ministries. All right. Facebook Fr. I am the biggest nerd anyone will ever meet. Well, okay, so theres a little bit of backstory here, and again, Luke, using this detail about Christ being on the road to Emmaushes actually on the road to Emmaus, but everyone knows what Emmaus is famous for. Johannes U. Ro and Diana Edelman, BZAW 534 (Berlin: de Gruyter, 2021), 263-88. Fr. Stephen: That would be like an inception; yeah, that might be good. Stephen: And all the Ethiopians will rejoice because theyre like: [Whispered] Weve got it!. This review considers the claims and notes some basic yet fundamental level issues. Genesis, 6:1-4. Stephen can write a follow-up book to help us connect these dots. Fr. In Hebrew, thats Yom Kippur, which is this annual commemoration thats made by the people of God in ancient Israel, but its an addition to the regular sin-offerings that are to be done every day. Stephen wrote this book in response to requests for an Orthodox perspective on violence in the Old Testament. Copyright 2023 Apple Inc. All rights reserved. Google Podcasts - The Whole Counsel But no Christian disputes that the theology of the apostles is the standard for Christian orthodoxy, so saying the apostles were orthodox in a general sense is not a very punchy claim since this is true tautologically. He purifies even them. Sin messes up the place where you are. Fr. One of the big questions that Fr. So some people will try to will want to translate Azazel, instead of seeing it as a name, as a proper name, will want to translate it as something like the goat who goes away. This is where scapegoat comes from, because scape- like escape. Escape is go away: the goat that goes away. He holds a PhD in Biblical Studies from Amridge University. Yeah, so why? Now, this doesnt mean, like, he was Santa, keeping a list all year, like the high priest was going around spying on people and seeing all the stuff they did and writing it down. The only time it happens is this, and that animal is not sacrificed. Andrew: Yes, right, so the idea is to take the sins of the people and get them out of the place where sin does not belong. Instagram, RSS & iTunes Okay, so how is that related to what weve been talking about? St. Paul the Mystic - The Whole Counsel Blog People have atonement theories. Stephen: And not just in the way that all words are made up; its very deliberately made up, very deliberately invented to describe something that there wasnt really another good word in the English language for. Andrew: Yeah, so he goes in, and he doesnt see an idol in there, and hes like: Well, what the heck? [Laughter] He actually busts his way into the holy of holies, so the Temple has to be reconsecrated. Are these just religious-sounding synonyms for good things or bad things? Andrew: Indeed. I liked the book, and I am so grateful for the discussions it has spawned within my own Orthodox congregation concerning the role of historical scholarship in interpreting Scripture. And now were going to turn towards the New Testament. And what hes doing here is hes taking this idea of the purification of sacred space, so if we imagine that theres sort of this layer of darkness over the whole world and theres sort of this dome, a dome of light over Israel, over the camp in the wilderness, over Israel as a nation, over Judah, Judea, and thats being purified sort of under the dome, is being cleansed and purified and being kept pure. [Laughter] How many times have we said now: The killing is not ritualized in any way? And if hes of Azazel, this one whos teaching this forbidden knowledge, then hes doing the works of his father, so to speak; hes imaging Azazel. Fr. [Laughter], Fr. Awesome stuff! Stephen: Doesnt everyone? The second thing that happenedand I was explicitly taught this in the Protestant church I used to attendis that because the apostles were worshiping Jesus as the Messiah, they inferred He must be God because you cant worship a merely created being. If youre a pastor and youre hearing confessions and you hear people struggle with all the disciplines of the Church that are intended, for instance, to purify us, to help us participate in purification, then theres a lot of discouragement that can come from that, and I think a lot of that comes because of a kind of reduced vision of what this is about. Stephen: Yeah, I mean you may have to deal with this mercy-seat stuff, but now you know how that works, so youre all set for Leviticus. Im going to describe this. So, actually, there is really important theology and teaching and doctrine thats in these three letters. We appreciate hearing from you. Theyre not just saying and this is what happened next! Stephen: And then as Hebrews again makes plain in Hebrews 11-12, Christ dies outside the camp. Fr. And in a ritual, if something is not ritualized, when you have a detailed ritual, and it says, Before the ritual, wash your hands, for example, and it doesnt say, Heres the prayer when you wash your hands, that means the hand-washing isnt ritualized, and it means it doesnt mean anything. Andrew: Thank you very much for calling in, Dan. Its also the Roman soldiers who are doing these Day of Atonement things in St. Matthews gospel. Fr. We welcome you. Fr. Why is that aww! Fr. Fr. Fr. Stephen: He had to purify himself before he could come back into the camp. Maybe Fr. Fr. Andrew: All right. So weve got: I go out to my sheep. Bible Studies - Saint George Orthodox Christian Cathedral Now that dome is expanded to encompass the whole world, because Christnot only does he not just send the stuff back to Azazel, he gets rid of Azazel. Fr. Fr. Fr. Fr. Stephen is also the host of the Whole Counsel of God podcast from Ancient Faith and author of the Whole Counsel Blog. Thats absolutely a blessing! Fr Stephen explains it a way that finally makes sense. Im just pointing out that you asked a perfectly logical question based on a bad translation. In response to what he viewed as not merely a malformation but a destruction of the Eucharist in Roman practice, John Calvin was dogmatic that the Eucharist is not a sacrifice. And from that perspective, it just doesnt make sense. And, supporting that within the Bible, is also in Leviticus 17:7, which is the very next chapterand remember, the chapter-breaks werent there originally, so this is just a couple paragraphs later at the end of the ritual for the Day of Atonementtheres the commandments that the Israelites are not to continue worshiping the goat-spirits of the wilderness. So it seems to me that Azazel is most likely one of those. [Laughter] So instead, now, this goat, this completely corrupt goat, has to go outside the camp, the city, outside, back out into the bad place, and its going to Azazel. Andrew Stephen Damick: Thank you, Voice of Steve! I mean, is is a good goat and a bad goat? It does not offer a literature review or footnotes for those wishing to explore these issues further, and the bibliography is scant; instead, the book offers a more popular tone that makes it accessible to a wide readership. Fr. Stephen: So both of them have to be perfect and unblemished, because theyre going to be used for two different purposes, but which one is used for which purpose is decided by lot. Consequently, I greeted the arrival of Fr. Can you hear us? Theres the effect that those sins have on not just the peopleand I think this is a great thing for us to mention especially here because our next couple of episodes are going to be on sacred geography, so were going to be talking about space in particulartheres an effect on the space, on the place. These are just a few examples of how Fr. Theyre preserved for us in Slavonic and were being copied in monasteries in the Orthodox world right up into the 16th century when the printing press was invented, so they were being deliberately preserved for us within the Church, not just accidentally we found them in the desert somewhere.. Okay, all right, well then, well dip back into Hebrews which references all of this. Fr. Yeah, thats not in the Greek. Chpts 1-4 Corrupting the Image 2 Hybrids Hades & the Mt Hermon Connection by Dr. Douglas Hamp, Nephilim: The Children of Lilith: The Place of Man in the Ontological and Cosmological Dualism of the Diablo, Darksiders and Devil May Cry Game Series. Great Value. So if you were to translate Azazel as the goat that goes away, then the other one becomes the goat that is who he is and makes things come into being. [Laughter] Like, it doesnt, Fr. Name that word! So you have to go back past the Greek a little bit. Dan: Okay. Fr. Fr. Fr. You know what Im saying? Fr. Fr. Its a word thats core to our understanding of Christianity, and yet there are about as many theories of atonement as there are Christian groups. March 12, 2021 Fr. I mean, people just. He picks up this idea of the eschatological Day of Atonement, and he says, Its Christ. So theres the Battle of Emmausand again, not Emmaus, Pennsylvaniabut yeah, so, okay, to give a little bit of background here, to make it bring it home for Pennsylvanians, it would be like saying, I was on the road to Gettysburg. Well, Gettysburg is a town and it has a Lutheran seminary there, but thats not what everyone remembers Gettysburg for. Not so great for the goat, but it keeps that from happening, which would be a very awkward moment. Fr. Stephen: Right, and what St. Matthew conveys there with His blood be on us and on our children in narrative theology, Hebrews just comes out and says, in Hebrews 9:18-22, that says, They were sprinkled with the blood. That is the place where it is most key that this happens within the sanctuary. Fr. Stephen: So this isnt transactional, so its not an issue of, like, Oh, well, maybe there were some sins that got missed during the year, so were going to do this sort of catch-all Day of Atonement to pick up those ones that were missed. Those were being done perpetually to cover all of the sinning that was going on, that everyone knew was going on in Israel. Stephen: Right, that was later. Some people like New Coke, which, now it turns out was all a conspiracy, but I wont get into that here. Fr. So why isnt this more widely understood? Fr. Stephen De Young is not only leading the charge for Orthodox apologetics in a world of secular biblical scholarship, but he is also doing us all a favor by reviving the cosmic frame of ancient Christians, giving hope to a jaded culture desperately looking for a re-enchanted world in which it can fully participate. Mike Schmitz), The Catechism in a Year (with Fr. Fr. Fr. But within this context of atonement, that Christ assumes the whole human experience, and therefore heals it all. Fr. That is not a false etymology, although usually etymologies that go like that are; theyre just nonsense. Stephen: Yeah, it was Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Stephen De Young. So theres this orderly, beautiful, purified, sacred space where God dwells with his people, and then chaos is whats on the outside. Fr. So Greek words in the New Testament are treated as these sort of independent entities without reference to what theyre translating, and then that allows you to pack a whole bunch of things in. [Laughter] Go back where you came from. Just in case anyone wonders, I have not seen the film Fallen. Stephen De Young. [Laughter]. That doesnt make it not historical. Andrew: Yeah, where that stuff is depicted as being good, like This spirit came and gave us this wonderful, beautiful knowledge! And the Bible is saying, No! Andrew: Yeah, theres this veiling that happens. It says: And the whole earth has been corrupted by the teaching of the works of Azazel. Sometimes, yeah, thats interpreted Anytime someone puts their hands on an animal, thats interpreted as meaning that theyre putting sins on it. Andrew: Like a lid, yeah, or the top. We talked a little bit about that. Andrew: Yeah, right! The Religion of the Apostles presents the Orthodox Christian Church of today as a continuation of the religious life of the . Stephen: Sin leaves a taint, not just on us. Fr. Thats for all of my Southern friends out there. Fr. Okay, so St. Matthew, he talks about Christ as being the goat that gets sent off to Azazel, right? Andrew: So, okay, a question that suddenly occurs to me is I mean, theres kind of a generalnow, maybe Im wrong about this, but I thought there was kind of a general rule of Dont touch the ark of the covenant, and of course Ive seen Raiders of the Lost Ark; I know what happens if you open it. Orthodoxy, The Early Church, and Second Temple Judaism (w/ Fr. Stephen Now the thing that has been done in part is now being done totally in full. Andrew: Right, right. Indeed, under the Law, almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. That last part, of course, often gets quoted out of context. Dan: Yeah, the second question was: What was it about their understanding of the goats blood that was understood to have a cleansing or sanctifying effect over the various parts of the holy of holies and the Temple that you guys discussed? When I received my copy of The Religion of the Apostles: Orthodox Christianity in the First Century by Fr. I love it when the fundamental unity between the old and new covenants is shown. This goat, we dont know nothing. Not machines taking over and acquiring agency, and not machines evolving their own intentionality, but human beings creating a world customized for the flourishing of machines? Andrew: Thank you for calling, Father. The idea of aliens, giants and mysterious monolithic structures has become popularized. He is also the author of The Whole Counsel Blog on . Fr. Fr. The Sons of God as a Polemic against Royal Immortality: A Philological and Literary Comparison of Genesis 6:14 and the Epic of Kirta, WHO 'FELL DOWN' TO OUR EARTH? Two things had to first happen for Trinitarian theology to be hammered out, or so I thought. I will examine, of course, the passage itself, the terminology used therein, and the various translations. Andrew: Yeah! Stephen De Young Easily the most important work in Pauline Studies, and likely in Biblical Studies as a whole, of the current decade is Matthew Thomas' published Oxford dissertation, Paul's "Works of the Law" in the Perspective of Second Century Reception. And where does that actually first show up? Fr. Andrew: Right. Youre not sacrificing a goat to Yahweh and then sacrificing another goat to Azazel. Andrew: Yeah, thats cool. Andrew Stephen Damick finish their three-part series on sacrifice. Andrew: Yeah, right, and it probably should be noted that that doesnt contradict what came before. Luke uses the Day of Atonement imagery to describe Christ as being the goat that is sent to Yahweh. Fr. This has just not been my day. Fr. Dr. Stephen De Young is Pastor of Archangel Gabriel Orthodox Church in Lafayette, Louisiana. So what does it mean? Im like: the rope thing is awesome! but please ask the guy who feels the need to constantly (some episodes he speaks more than De Young!) In God Is a Man of War, Fr. So, the sort of subsidiary meanings then of cover, number one, if definition of kefir verbs is cover, then your secondary ones would be like wipe or smear. If youre covering something with something else, like if youre going to cover your roof with pitch or what have you, you would wipe it or smear it in order to cover it; cover a wall with paint. Stephen: Right, and you especially dont need to bring any livestock to the church. Dont mention that! Fr. For those of you who know what that is, you know who you are. Its really cool. Stephen: Join us for our live broadcasts on the second and fourth Thursdays of the month at 7:00 p.m. Eastern, 4:00 p.m. Pacific. We have Dan from New York, and he has a question specifically about the Day of Atonement ritual. Stephen: And we dont normally think about Cain a lot, but when we do we think about the story of Cain and Abel and, oh yeah, hes a murderer; hes a bad guy. Andrew: [Laughter] That we always get! Fr. We are working to restore the entire archive of Fr. And so when the lots are cast, one of these two goats is designated as the goat for Yahweh, and the other goat is designated as the goat for Azazel. The answer, according to Fr. So hes sort of the main motivator of that. Andrew: No, I dont think so, but yeah [Laughter] Hello, all of you Jonathan Pageau fans out there. He wants them to repent of those sins and to be purified by his coming. Fr. Stephen: Thats the indictment thats sort of read over Azazel before he at this eschatological Day of Atonement. Stephen De Young Archives - Rule of Faith In addition to chapters on the Trinity and atonement, the book features sections on the powers of the spiritual world, the saints, creation, Israel, and the law of God. The Nephilim were said to be a race or a group of people that had distinct physical characteristics of large size and great strength. That would have been a great quest line. Stephen: Right, they have to be GOAT goats. ,and So its not about me, or me and Fr. It may be the case that this scholarship does vindicate the claims of Orthodox Church, but much more work needs to be done connecting the dots. [Laughter] Dont the daily offerings cover it? Furthermore, I will attempt to explicate theories on the origin of evil and provide the verses that were utilized to support these theories. Fr. Fr. Its not Yeah. (Ok, technically the Orthodox Church denies penal substitutionary atonement while affirming substitutionary atonement, but most people, including well-meaning Orthodox who deny substitution completely, are not familiar with this distinction.) So, I dont know, its cool. Fr. Fr. Its not like magic wood that they went and found in the enchanted forest. Thats like everyones evening devotional reading right there.